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Ещё одна статья про систему образования в Финляндии.

Date: 2013-03-25 03:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] marmir.livejournal.com
Yeah, it's a fairly old article. That is just in the "not going to happen" category for America. For one thing, they may talk all they want about how their population is now more diverse due to immigration - but that's hardly in the same category as population diversity in this country. And, just on the ideological level, can you really imagine this "push for equality" here? Nationwide, I mean?

Date: 2013-03-25 03:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
I know it's not workable here. Did you read the article, btw? They compared Finland to Norway, which is just as homogenous as Finland, but has more of an American system. That's an interesting piece of research.

Date: 2013-03-25 03:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] marmir.livejournal.com
I read it when it first came out, so I may be sketchy on some details.
And, of course, if we look at MA as a separate entity, then it does quite well even compared to those high achieving countries.

Date: 2013-03-25 03:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
Which prolly has more to do with MA being overall wealthy than the fact that our system is so great. It's not much different from other states.

Date: 2013-03-25 03:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skyg74.livejournal.com
I would be against saying good-bye to the standarlized tests and been depended souly on the teacher

Date: 2013-03-25 03:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
We've been obsessed with standardized testing forever - looks like Finns are doing better than us with no standardized testing. Or at least that one standardized test that they took to compare themselves to other countries shows that they are one of the best :).

Date: 2013-03-25 03:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skyg74.livejournal.com
:) exactly. I think there is something fishy about their system. Like with no good controls teachers can "help out" on those big tests. Unlike Japanese and Singapore students they don't have a lot of homework ...

Date: 2013-03-25 03:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
I think it's way more likely to happen in Asia than in Finland. :)

Date: 2013-03-25 03:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anna-i.livejournal.com
I still think that they must have a different educational approach as well. After all, one of the reasons people send their kids to private schools here is failing public schools. So it's not clear how equity would help in such situations, other than having all kids do equally terrible.

Date: 2013-03-25 03:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
Educational approach in what sense? They do. I wrote here about the fact that their teachers are more educated and given more responsibility - which is similar to the second best ranked place - South Korea, where the system is the complete opposite of Finland's.

Date: 2013-03-25 04:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anna-i.livejournal.com
Well, the main point of the article is that their main goal is equality, not education. Here, once they start worrying about "diversity" more than education, there go public schools. I guess diversity is not equal to equality, although it is the main idea behind both.

Teachers' educational level might be the key, although I am not even sure about that. The problem with this country is too much money, so they think that they can cure any problems by throwing more money in, which is counter-productive more often than not. We spend more money per student than any other country in the world, with nothing to show for it. Parents in Maimo complained for years about pathetic math, so what did they do? They hired expensive outside consultants, instead of getting a good math teacher who would cost a fraction of that.

Date: 2013-03-25 04:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
Yup, I agree.
I think in Finland, I see two main ideas:
First, is equality, which is more of a societal goal. With that, people get money for food, free daycare, free medical care, blah blah. Which means that everyone who comes into the school system had a chance to obtain proper medical care and food. Which is a big deal. If you talk to public school teachers in Boston, you know that there are plenty of kids that come to school hungry. If a kid is hungry, obviously, they won't be able to be successful in school until their basic needs are satisfied.
The other is having good teachers. In Finland teachers are very well compensated and education schools are difficult to get into. So, the best of the best are encouraged to go into teaching. Here it's not so much. And we do end up with ridiculous situations like what you described with Maimo.

Date: 2013-03-25 04:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anna-i.livejournal.com
Yes, but are the kids in South Korea just as well fed? :) There are other societal issues as well - high rate of divorce in those communities, crime, etc, you probably know better than I do, your husband saw them first hand :) I doubt the same problems exist in Finland on the same scale. Also, parents not caring a bit about their kids' education. One of Esther's teachers used to teach in Brighton public schools, on back to school nights he always tells to the room full of Maimo parents how in Brighton he would usually have a turnaround of maybe 4 sets of parents showing up. I agree that affordable pre-school would help solve some of the problems (there was a program about this on NPR, they were describing a system of such pre-schools in one of the poorer states, forget which one).

Date: 2013-03-25 04:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
Yeah, I know, it's a problem, but I think that's precisely what Finns are doing - taking care of some of these problems within the school system. The teachers and the system is partly doing the work of the parents.. but of course, our inner cities are something that they don't have :).
BTW, did you read about the comparison between Finland and Norway (they are similarly homogenous, with Norway having more of an American-style system). That's an interesting comparison as well.

In South Korea the model is completely different - tiger mom on steriods. The only similarity is the status of teachers in society.

Date: 2013-03-25 04:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] iz-tumana.livejournal.com
not a big secret, that their system is very similar to the best american private schools :) No standardized tests, more freedom and responsibility to the teachers, teachers in upper school have Master's degree in subjects they are teaching (basically, you can't have a degree in classics and teach math or science at middle or high school level), decent salaries for younger teachers, prestige and homogeneous population :)

Date: 2013-03-25 04:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
:)
BTW, what I heard that that private schools pay their teachers less than public? Or are we talking about some really fancy private schools? Is the benefit package similar?

Date: 2013-03-25 06:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] iz-tumana.livejournal.com
Well, because public schools teachers are unionized, their pay is based on seniority, so yes, 60 yr old granny teaching since the 80s in public schools could be making a lot more than a private school teacher. Plus, she has a large pension, so she will never leave the system to go into private sector. However, if some graduate of Yale, who majored in physics, decides to go into teaching, it will most likely be a private school, because it will take him well over 10 yrs in public schools to match his private school starting salary. Plus the environment is very different, so it takes a young idealist or a special mind set, or someone who is less qualified, to go into public schools, if we are talking about young new teachers.

Date: 2013-03-26 01:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andreylv.livejournal.com
In my experience, it is true. I think there are two main reasons for that:
1. there's more supply of private school teachers, since they don't have to be licensed or unionized
2. teaching in a private school is more rewarding due to less amount of red tape and more freedom for teachers

When I looked at that market about ten years ago, I found that private schools paid about 20k less that public schools (and that doesn't accound for benefits, much better in public schools).

Date: 2013-03-26 01:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
Right, this makes sense, and that's what I heard as well. Maybe the comparison is for some very exclusive private schools where salaries may be higher.

Date: 2013-03-26 06:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aregjan.livejournal.com
Silly stuff.

The Finish model yields the same results (actually - worse) than the Asian model, which is diametrically opposite in its methodologies.
So, obviously the outcome has little to do with the details of individual methodologies and more to do with something entirely different. But yeah, it's endearing
how the author tries to interpret it all in the framework of her wishful liberal thinking. :)

Date: 2013-03-26 06:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
I am missing your point, sweets.
The Asian model and the Finnish model do have one thing in common - status of teachers. Plus, Asian model produces more stress and higher suicide rate.

Date: 2013-03-26 06:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aregjan.livejournal.com
Yes, both systems involve high prestige for teachers. However, that's not the emphasis of the article. The article stresses the equality part of the Finish models -- no private schools -- as the "key to success."

Date: 2013-03-26 06:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
It's one of the keys to success. Why does it surprise you? In the US, rich states do well (like MA), but poor states do not. As I said in one of the comments, if your school population's basic needs are satisfied, their school performance will improve. I don't think it's the main component, but it's one of the components.

Date: 2013-03-26 06:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aregjan.livejournal.com
Why it surprises me? Because other evidence points to the contrary, that's why: Asians have private schools, and they get the same/similar/better results, so clearly it's not it. Also, you are confusing things -- equality and rich state / poor state are not the same things. Equality in this example is defined as the lack of access to special sources of education.

Date: 2013-03-26 06:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
Well, the whole organization and setup of education is different, right? So you can't just compare. Which is why the article is looking at factors other than the system itself to figure out what else can impact performance. I am not confusing things: by equality they mean universal access to education and social safety net. I am not saying that you can't achieve good results outside of the Finnish system - clearly, that's not the case, but overall, their setup is way more attractive to me than the Asian model. Asian model actually sounds pretty horrible to me.

Date: 2013-03-26 07:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aregjan.livejournal.com
Yet one of the most significant things Sahlberg said passed practically unnoticed. "Oh," he mentioned at one point, "and there are no private schools in Finland."

"Here in America," Sahlberg said at the Teachers College, "parents can choose to take their kids to private schools. It's the same idea of a marketplace that applies to, say, shops. Schools are a shop and parents can buy what ever they want. In Finland parents can also choose. But the options are all the same."


My point is -- you could adopt the Finnish model, and find that your results do not improve. Because there are OTHER factors about Finland that condition their success.

As to universal access to education and social safety net -- all European countries have that. And they all have
problems with education, and overall lag WELL behind the US in university education. And that's what I keep saying: you can't cherry pick individual data points -- you have to look at all the information from all sources.

Date: 2013-03-26 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
Well, look at the article - they talk about Norway where population is similar, plus the safety net, blah blah, but their education model is more American, and their school performance is worse.
I don't think all Europeans have problems with education, and as far as university education is concerned - that's because US is the wealthiest country and has the most funding for research. On the undergrad level I highly doubt the US education is so much better. On the grad level - yes.

Date: 2013-03-26 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aregjan.livejournal.com
Well, look at the article - they talk about Norway where population is similar, plus the safety net, blah blah, but their education model is more American, and their school performance is worse.

a) So far you are only proving that the safety net blah blah is not a driving force behind educational quality.
b) if one were to judge based on these two examples ONLY, then yes, one could conclude that American model perhaps is to blame. However, if you start adding more data, e.g. from super-competitive Asia, then you conclude that you are back to ground zero - you get roughly the same performance as in Finland. And you are left with no other choice but to conclude that the particular Finish educational model -- lack of competition, total equality -- also is not enough to explain their success.

I don't think all Europeans have problems with education,

Why don't you ask someone who studied there? E.g. me, or my wife or all our European friends who escaped Europe because they wanted real education? :)

Date: 2013-03-26 07:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mamaracha.livejournal.com
Oh, paaaaalease! Aregjan, what kind of argument is that? Ask Vasya if you don't believe me? :) I know plenty of people who studied in Europe and who are very happy with their education. Don't forget, we all studied in Europe at some point. The Soviet Union system was actually not too shabby either, if you think about it (considering...).

And on b) you're talking in circles. I did say more than once that the Finnish system is not the only way to achieve success in education, clearly, but to me it's the preferred way vs. the Asian model. I hope the Asian model never comes here.

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